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Market Forces —

May 22, 2014

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Trigger warning: Human scum ahead. Read with caution.

Over the last week, I noticed a new trend among the fat haters. Let’s call it the Dudebro Evopsych Manifesto. In meme form, it goes a little something like this:

Stop Forcing

To understand how utterly ridiculous this idea of evolutionary disdain toward fatties is, you just need to go back to 200-pound Lillian Russell, the sex symbol from the 1890s.

Lillian 2

Fat and desirable: whodathunk.

So when I saw this meme, I couldn’t help but laugh. There are guys out there who really, truly believe that they are being “forced” to like fat women. Apparently, there are roving gangs of the militant fat girls assaulting innocent young men who are just trying to do humanity a favor by offering to pass on their healthy, pure genes with the evolutionarily ideal woman (aka Hot Girls). But things have gotten so bad that these brave, noble men are finally speaking out against the oppression they’ve endured and are pushing back against the long-established social advantages that fatties have enjoyed for far too long.

Bravo, young memer. Bravo.

That would have been the end of my interest in the Dudebro Evopsych Manifesto, were it not for the article published back in December that I recently saw on Facebook titled, “Why I hate fat girls: Tipping the Dating Market Scale.” Now, for obvious reasons I’m not going to link to the site and give these bottomfeeders any more attention than I’m already about to do. But I will link to this image of the post, along with copyright acknowledgement for its author, 20Nation. You don’t need to read it completely to get the gist,  but if you’re interested from an anthropological or comedic standpoint, there it is for your reference.

But the general sentiment can be summed up in a few choice paragraphs and these beautiful, beautiful headlines:

  • Hot girls in fat countries are stuck up
  • Fat people don’t think that obesity affects anybody but themselves
  • Why obesity in men has a different effect

And my personal favorite…

  • What you can do?

But before we get into those juicy sections, we have to understand 20Nation’s basic premise:

Being raised in The States and then spending years traveling the world, I have noticed a phenomenon. I have noticed that the attractive girls in the USA are especially stuck up, overconfident and entitled. You may think that this is just the culture, and it is, but only a part of it is the culture. I actually remember thinking to myself “What are hot girls so difficult?”

Aside from his pathological inability to construct a basic question (what are you write so dumb?), 20Nation has some really, really solid arguments (per the residents of Waterworld) that prove his points perfectly in his effort expose the tyranny of fatties as a devious plot to keep him unfuckable in America.

Adam Smith

We all remember Adam Smith’s treatise on the invisible handjob of the market.

According 20Nation, because American  women have gotten so fat the percentage of available thin women (not to mention the percentage of available thin AND attractive women, am right I?) has dwindled to such dire proportions that the limited reserve of Hot Girls is getting too uppity for his liking. Or, as 20Nation puts it:

Because of an unnatural amount of guys sucking up to them and fawning over them, these women start to believe they are gods gift to planet earth; they think that their dating market value is much higher than it really is… Many of these fat girls would actually be stunners if they took care of their body. If they did that, the small amount of hot girls wouldn’t get so much attention from so many men and the world would be a better place.

Hear that, fat girls? You can make the world a better place if you’d just stop being so fat and let 20Nation get his needledick hard long enough to ejaculate away the desperation and loneliness his bitter existence.

But here’s the funny thing about 20Nation’s flaccid argument: it’s disproven by his own fucking “data.”

20Nation is quite the prolific blogger, having written “How I Fucked 19 Pinay Girls in 14 Days in The Philippines,” “How I Banged 31 Dominican Girls in 25 Days,” and “Mexican Girls: How to Bang, Types and Pictures.” I also found some of his lesser known articles like “How I Cured 21 STIs with Body Glitter and Jello Shots,” “How to Barter With Sex Workers Using Forged Checks,” and “Crying In Your Pillow: How to Keep Your Hostel Mates from Hating You as Much as You Hate Yourself.”

And then there’s this:

20 Dollar Cambodian women

But what 20Nation’s most proud of is his map charting “Easiness of Girls By Country.” Again, just so we don’t have to give traffic to human toe fungus, here ya go.

Easiness Map

Compare that with the World Health Organization’s map of overweight and obesity prevalence in women. What you may notice is that the prevalence of fat women doesn’t exactly correlate with the easiness of girls.


But what, oh what, could possibly explain why women in the United States won’t fuck 20Nation if not the devastating effect that obesity has had on the International Easiness Index? Well, I did notice one map of global gross national income per capita that suggests poorer nations tended to fall into the “Won’t Touch My Penis” category on 20Nation’s map.

Poverty Map

And you know what’s even weirder? There’s a similar correlation with countries that have greater rates of sex tourism:

Sex Tourism

But yeah, let’s go ahead and run with the argument that the reason American women won’t fuck 20Nation has nothing to do with the fact that his 20 Dollar Cambodian Woman is probably living in dire poverty.

He then goes on to compare the easiness of women in Mexico vs. the Philippines as evidence that his theory is correct. But when you look at the WHO’s stats on obesity rates for women aged 30-100, you notice a distinct pattern to obesity rates in countries where 20Nation boasts of his exploits:

  • Cambodia  — 0.5%
  • Colombia — 34.7%
  • Dominican Republic  — 47.9%
  • Haiti  — 26.0%
  • Nicaragua  — 51.2%
  • Philippines  — 7.3%
  • Thailand  — 16.2%

For reference, the obesity rate of Mexico is 51.1%. Yet he boasts of his exploits in Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic, both of which have comparable obesity rates. But also, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic have booming sex tourism (same with Colombia and Haiti). But Asia is genetically less inclined toward comparable obesity rates with the West. Yet even though Asia has some of the lowest obesity rates globally, that doesn’t actually correlated with metabolic health, as explained in this discussion of diabetes global obesity rates from the American Diabetes Association’s journal Diabetes Care:

In Asia, obesity rates do not directly correspond with diabetes rates. India, for example, has a very low prevalence of obesity, but notably high rates of type 2 diabetes. A number of Asian countries also have substantially lower rates of overweight and obesity than the U.S., but similar or higher rates of diabetes. In Asian populations, increased risk of diabetes starts at a lower BMI than in Europeans. In addition, even a modest amount of weight gain during adulthood substantially increases the risk of diabetes in Asians.

Ignoring these facts, 20Nation moves on to the section titled “Fat people don’t think that obesity affects anybody but themselves” stating:

Most fat people really believe this. They think that they are not hurting anyone and that it is their body to do with as they please. But they do affect other people. They affect men and the dating market. Not only do they make it harder for men to score with the girls they are attracted to, they are forcing some men to choose something that is unattractive to them or be celibate… Obesity literally affects other people because they have to look at it.

That’s right! Fat girls are literally hurting guys with their selfish decision to not be hot. WON’T YOU THINK OF THE DUDEBRO PENII!!!

And just to be clear, fat guys are under no obligation to stop being eye pollution, as explained in the following section, “Why obesity in men has a different effect,” which may be my favorite section of all:

Like it or not, we as men have to face the facts… we are shallow, especially in comparison to women. Women care about looks, but they care about looks much less than men… Because women don’t care as much about looks, this means that a fat guy can get a hot girl. This means that the obesity epidemic doesn’t affect how women feel about men as much as it affects what men feel about women. Men are the ones getting screwed. All the fat guys can still chase after the hot girls and they do.

All the fat guys. Every single one.

I completely understand if you need to take a minute to appreciate the steaming mound of self-rationalizing bullshit that is this paragraph. I’ve read it at least 50 times and I’ve shaken my damn head so much I’m thinking of having a Lazy Susan installed in my neck.

Apparently, women care about other stuff more than looks (presumably swagger and cash), but for some reason 20Nation still can’t get laid in America. I mean, it’s an evolutionary fact that even fat guys can fuck hot girls, so clearly it’s not his looks (which, incidentally, aren’t shared anywhere on his blog or in his books). Hence the convenient theory that obesity rates are preventing him from getting laid.

And so, with the help of all those frustrated American men with high standards who are still getting rejected by American women despite the fact that women aren’t as superficial as men, 20Nation lays out the groundwork for a New American Revolution:

If you are talking to a fat girl, don’t tell her how beautiful she looks, tell her how beautiful she would look if she were a healthy weight. If a fat girl is asking you if she thinks she should diet, tell her that she better if she wants to live a long life. If a fat girl complains that no guy likes her, don’t pussy foot around the subject, tell her why no guy likes her. Every person can help make the world a better place, one fat girl at a time.

This is 20Nation’s brilliant idea: stigmatize fat women. Because if there’s one thing we’ve learned over the past 50 years, it’s that society doesn’t stigmatize fat women enough. We’ve gotta go that extra mile, dudes. Otherwise men will be “faced with a dating market that is stacked against them (if they want a girl they are naturally attracted to.)” and as 20Nation bemoans, “This is unfair and it is a problem that our forefathers never had to deal with.”

Yes! As Benjamin Franklin wrote in Poor Richard’s Almanac, “No fatties.”

Now, if you don’t have the time or patience to wait for American men to fix the obesity problem, 20Nation has a sweet backup plan for you:

The only way out?

I hate fat girls because of how hard it makes getting laid, but you can escape fat girls. Open up a map and go to any place with low obesity rates. Watch how much different an attractive girl will react when you start hitting on her; it will blow your mind. Watch as a relationship with a beautiful woman will naturally happen, without the need of high level game and lots of experience with women.

These places are the promised lands; they are the places that we were promised as kids. They are the places that we imagined when we grew up, back when we thought women were supposed to be sexy, feminine, thin and sweet creatures. The promise land exists… in a land far away… a land with very few fat girls.

In other words, “Hey men, if you’re sick of getting shot down by Uppity Hot Girls in America come to the Philippines where there are 60,000 to 100,000 child prostitutes just waiting for your highly-valued American dollars.” Now, you may be asking, “Shannon, why credit child prostitutes and not just 20Nation’s smooth moves on helpless, humble foreign girls?” Well, for one, all three posts about the Swoop The World’s sexual conquest in the Philippines (including the account of having sex with 19 “Pinay” girls in 14 days) include multiple accounts and nude photos from “Cebu.” According to the Children’s Legal Bureau (CLB), Cebu City is the hub for trafficking children:

“In 2004 two of the four most common routes to traffic children included Cebu City, which is widely known to have the highest rates of CST (child-sex tourism) in the country. Filipino law enforcement cites Cebu City as a pedophile hot spot,” read the CLB report. Of all the cities and towns in Cebu, Cebu City, per Department of Tourism 2010-2011 statistics, recorded 1,068,830 million travelers, of which 275,137 were foreign nationals.

So, in a nutshell, the fat hatred coming from 20Nation is just the top, crusty layer on a massive scabby pie of human misery and sadness. And the thing is, 20Nation, and other dime-a-dozen gurus like him, are like those barrels of nuclear waste in horror movies that trigger an outbreak of zombies. Other sad, desperate dudebros read this shit and jump on reddit to go “Yeah man, fat chicks are totally to blame for me not getting laid, so I’m going to scream on the internet to take out my sexual inadequacies on them.”

The sick reality is that one of their heroes and mentors is just some pathetic asshole attempting to turn a profit on the fact that he can only have sex by exploiting the global scourge of sex trafficking.

That’s really all there is to it.

But what kind of monster would do such a thing? Well, the answer to that is kind of interesting…

Lifting the Mask

Now, what I didn’t realize when I first read this post is that the blog, Swoop the World, is a PUA blog. For those unhip to the lingo of the tragically chaste, PUA stands for Pick Up Artist. You know, Frank TJ Mackey shit?

 Except, in reality, the Mackey prototype is one Tom “FAT SLOB” Leykis:

Line’s on the left, ladies.

Mr. Leykis is a big fan of Fierce Fatties, as I’ve pointed out in two separate posts. The only reason I even knew who the hell Tom Leykis was is because he started posting blog comments that never saw the light of day. I emailed him and tweeted at him to discuss it with him and got no response. Yet he continues to post the occasional comment, including one about two weeks ago.

Tom Leykis 3

20Nation is Tom Leykis on steroids. You know the whole Nice Guy Syndrome? You know, when the Nice Guy is super sad because Hot Girls only want to date Bad Boys, so they keep getting Friendzoned (i.e., told “I love you like a brother” or “you’re such a good friend” as an indication that Hot Girl has no romantic interest). Nice Guys are a plague because there’s a sense of entitlement to a girl’s affections simply because the guy is not a being complete asshole.

Well, 20Nation et. al.  are the mutant offspring Nice Guys. 20Nation is what happens when the Nice Guy stop pretending to be nice. Instead, these Nuclear Guys convince themselves that the problem isn’t them, it’s that women have to be tricked into fucking them. Enter the siren song of the PUA.

PUA gurus promise desperate guys that they’ve discovered the trick to seducing women no matter how hot they are. Of course, you have to buy the books and the videos and the tickets to the seminar. Only then will you learn the secrets of “The Scrambler.”

The Scrambler

I found this ad on PUA Forums, which explains the philosophy behind the magic:

When a man learns the proper technique of being a good Pick Up Artist, he increases his desirability immensely. He then can show off to his friends the women that he is able to date, while they are still struggling to find someone to say, “Hello” to them. As other women see that there are a bunch of other gorgeous women being seen with this one man, more and more of them will show an interest in him, too. The new Pick Up Artist will not be able to keep his calendar free after this starts to happen for him.

PUA Forums also shares a photo of what we can only assume are PUAs of High Renown.


Pick Up Artists or Carnival of Souls? You decide.

Like other PUA shysters, 20Nation has a number of PUA ebooks. If you’re interested, you can find them on Amazon under the name Nicholas Jack, which I will link to just so you can see the hilarious fact that all but one of his books are free. Likewise, when you click through 20Nation’s posts, you find that every third post announces that one of his books is free FOR A LIMITED TIME, or forever… whatever. The one book that actually costs money is called The Key Logger: A Forbidden Glimpse at the True Nature of Women, which is reviewed by fellow terrible human being Matt Forney.

The premise of The Key Logger is rather unique; it’s about how Jack secretly installed a key logger on his computer so he could spy on his girlfriends’ Facebook and email accounts. The book follows ten separate girls he used the key logger on, covering the range from an innocent “good girl” to a hard-partying Paris Hilton wannabe to a nutty slut looking to cuckold her husband, and all of them behave in the exact same way.

As a point of reference, Forney is a popular douchebag blogger who once inflamed the internet with an article titled “The Case Against Female Self-Esteem,” which begins “I’m just gonna come out and say it: I love insecure women. Whenever a girl I’m talking to brags about how she’s ‘confident’ and ‘strong,’ I can feel my dick deflating like a punctured tire.” He followed this brilliant analysis with “How to Crush a Girl’s Self-Esteem.” Forney also took the time to write his own satirical PUA ebook on “how to bang fat chicks” inspired by posts he read on reddit and This Is Thin Privilege, both hallmarks of the kind of reddit trolls we’ve dealt with on our blog.

It’s also worth noting that Matt Forney has a shitload of fat-hating articles all about how horrible fat women are and how they ruin dating for guys like him, who would otherwise be swimming in willing vaginas. As always, these Nuclear Guys have a pretty high regard for themselves: they’re totally fuckable, but women are the problem. I mean, just check out the way Forney represents himself on his blog.

Matt Forney2

Wow, what a badass. He looks all cool and tough, but he’s also got those sensitive blue eyes. I mean, what lady could resist such a fine specimen of —

Matt Forney

The real Matt Forney. Once again, line’s on the left, ladies.

— wait, who’s this? When I zoom in, I’m pretty sure I’m looking at a rejected Cabbage Patch Doll.

Cabbage Patch Forney

This Forney dude is just some dipshit who compiled his blog posts into an ebook about profiting off trolling. Yeah, I can’t imagine why this guy’s not getting laid without standing on the shoulders of Tom Leykis. But Forney’s such a tool that even high school newspapers are taking him down a notch.

So Forney’s got “Nicholas Jack” guy’s back, but who the fuck is Nicholas Jack (aka 20Nation)? And what kind of pathetic sack of shit puts a keylogger on their computer to spy on the women willing to mercyfuck him?

It seems Nicholas Jack is a pseudonym for a notorious PUA and internet scammer named Rob Wiser. You can make up your own mind, but a user named The Great Milenko on a forum called PUAHate (which is a whole other world of misogyny) recently wrote an exhaustive biography of Rob Wiser’s  other online persona GManifesto, and makes a convincing case for him being behind 20Nation. And this is Rob Wiser:

Rob Wiser

I dare you to caption this photo without reference to this man’s dick.

As Milenko explains:

“GManifesto” is nothing but a marketing vehicle for Rob Wiser’s paid products, which makes Rob Wiser (aka “GManifesto”) a coy lowlife spammer. Everything that “GManifesto” has ever wrote in the past seven years (including dozen other monikers he used) was designed to build his brands, to build another platform from where he would be able to seamlessly link to his numerous cross-promotional products and, more disgustingly, to also extract intelligence for his products on the sly.

That “intelligence” is what Wiser/20Nation used to compile his “Easiness of Girls By Country” map. Milenko goes into great detail outlining exactly where Wiser comes from and the way he has built his internet marketing “empire” into a scam that pays his airfare from Sex Tourism Capital to Sex Tourism Capital.

In all likelihood, Rob Wiser is the loathsome piece of scum is the source of the “Why I hate fat girls” article and dozens of online identities all shilling the same PUA bullshit, while trotting the globe paying to have sex with women who are more-likely-than-not in sexual bondage. And it’s the Rob Wisers of the world who pour fuel on the fire of contempt toward fat women raging on the internet today. And it explains a lot about the double standard in stigma that we’re all acutely aware of.

PUA Fodder

We talk a lot on this blog about how the media impacts girls, particularly with regard to body image and self-worth. We all know the statistics about young girls hating their bodies long before they even reach junior high. We’ve all read about the role that magazines, TV, music and movies have played in that tragedy. But we don’t often talk about the effect that the media has on boys. And its an effect that can be summed up in a phrase extracted from that PUA Forum description I shared earlier: “He then can show off to his friends the women that he is able to date.”

Masculinity is often judged between men by the women they date. I grew up acutely aware of this fact and as a teenager felt compelled to “compete” for the attention of women who I thought would reflect well on me by other men. It’s this exact same pressure that drives Nice Guy Syndrome. In a culture where men are judged by the women they date, there is naturally going to be a pressure to “get” a Hot Girl, as defined by cultural ideals. But these Nice Guys run into the reality that women won’t fuck them, even if they believe themselves to be “high quality” guys.

Rather than face the fact that women may reject them for the exact same reasons that they reject certain women (i.e., they just aren’t attracted to them, whether for superficial reasons or not), they create this elaborate fantasy whereby women are the prey and they are the predators, capable of hunting their quarry with the right skills.

I was certainly no stranger to this mindset. I was complaining about girls putting me in the “Friendzone” long before it had a name.

Me and Angie

Me in the Friendzone circa 1998 with Angie, the girl who would become one of my best friends.

As a teen, I was the Nice Guy who desperately Say Anythingwanted a girlfriend and would do just about anything to woo a girl. And raised on a steady diet of ’80s romantic comedies, I became convinced that the way to a girl’s heart was through the Grand Romantic Gesture — some public display of infatuation that would catch a girl’s attention and make her realize that I was such a Nice Guy that she’d be better of with me than the Bad Boys with whom I felt a sense of perpetual competition.

For four years straight, I used Valentine’s Day to launch one Grand Romantic Gesture after another aimed at winning the heart that year’s Hot Girl. For four years straight, I would reveal myself as the Secret Admirer behind the flowers or mix tape or anonymous phone call playing “Can’t Fight This Feeling,” only to experience the inevitable rejection that followed. Of course, what I didn’t realize is that, objectively speaking, my attempts at seduction were really fucking creepy.

Thankfully there was no PUA Movement when I was a teen, so all I had to fall back on were those ’80s movies. There were so many that left an indelible mark on my imagination: Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, Weird Science, Sixteen Candles, Say Anything…, Breakfast Club, Can’t Buy Me Love. But the one that illustrates Nice Guy Syndrome was Pretty in Pink, my generation’s Romeo and Juliet, minus the tragic double suicide.

Pretty In Pink

Seriously, just fuck off already, Duckie.

I had such a crush on Molly Ringwald, who played Andie, the ginger, avant-garde fashionista being pursued by not one, not two, but three guys. First, was her quirky best friend Duckie (John Cryer), who was pretty much the prototype for the Friendzoned Nice Guy. Then came Steff (James Spader), the handsome. wealthy Bad Boy who admits up front that he’s had the hots for Andie throughout high school, despite her turning down his advances. When they remake Pretty In Pink, Steff will be a PUA. And then, somewhere in the middle, was Blane (Andrew McCarthy), the rich kid with the heart of gold who woos Andie throughout the film.

The problem is that Blane and Molly run in two different economic classes. While they get together early on, Blane eventually chickens out when Steff gives him shit for dating poor Andie. All the while, Duckie relentlessly, unabashedly, obnoxiously woos Andie, which she repeatedly and patiently shoots down.

On the other hand, Blane actually succeeds in getting Andie to go out with him by stalking her at her record store job and using the pretense of buying a record to strike up a conversation. At one point while Blane is “shopping,” he keeps glancing up at Andie until he finally catches her eye and they share a smile. In my mind, this was the key. Eye contact was how I would get to the point where I could ask my potential crush out.

Convinced that I was more Blane than Duckie, I would often hang around where my crush might be, attempting eye contact that might spark our first unspoken interaction and lead to so much more. I saw it all as part of the elaborate stagecraft necessary to attract girls. And, of course, the girl just saw it as that creepy guy who keeps staring at her from across the room. Needless to say, I remained the obnoxious, oblivious Duckie throughout high school.

It wasn’t until I started reading about Nice Guys and Friendzones as an adult that I began to realize just how shitty my behavior was and, quite possibly, how much it contributed to my abysmal dating life. And while part of it was the kind of entitlement that makes Nice Guys so toxic, another part was rooted in my belief that I could get girls to like me if I just did the right things.

In other words, I had learned from my culture getting a girl to like me was my job, my responsibility and, therefore, if girls didn’t like me, I was failing somehow. Either I was too ugly or too unfunny or wore the wrong things or said the wrong things or did the wrong things, and that if I just had the right approach then I would improve my chances of getting the Hot Girl to notice me. Society reinforces that message by telling men that they are the ones responsible for attracting women, for asking them out, for seducing them, and for convincing women that they are worth dating. So if you can’t find love, then there’s something wrong with you.

It wasn’t until I actually heard the girl’s perspective on Nice Guys that I realized what the real problem was: sometimes girls just aren’t attracted to you and there’s nothing you can do about it. Period.

I know it sounds pretty obvious now, but it sure as hell wasn’t at the time, or else it was too painful to admit.

Admitting that not every girl was attracted to me meant admitting that I was less of a man than those who could. I also didn’t appreciate just how much of my self-worth was intimately tied up in whether a hot girl found me hot as well. Being rejected by a crush became a major source of anxiety for me. It wasn’t until I discovered the brand new world of online dating back in 1996-1997 that I could talk to girls without the soul-crushing fear of rejection.

It’s from this perspective that I understand how PUA gurus find their acolytes. In the Rob Wiser exposé, Milenko paints a picture of a pathetic slacker who has found a way to convince insecure men that he can salvage their masculinity by teaching them his secrets… for a fee.

My hope is that that when you think of Rob Wiser, 20Nation and all the other pathetic PUA gurus out there peddling fat hatred for clicks, you will think of this:

Rob Wiser

This is one of the sources of so much masculine angst.

This is one of the sources of the Dudebro Evopsych Manifesto.

This is one of the sources of the entitlement and the contempt and the demands that fat women get thin or else destroy humanity one deflated boner at a time.

And the better we understand where it comes from, the better equipped we are to combat its toxic influence.

27 Comments leave one →
  1. May 22, 2014 3:31 pm

    I feel like a need a long hot shower after being exposed to the smarminess of the PUA’s you are writing about. The repulsive and blatant objectification of women is bad enough, but add the fat hatred and arrogance…bleeeeccchhhh!

    • venuspluto67 permalink
      November 13, 2014 7:06 am

      Yeah, what’s really jaw-dropping is how women are supposed to be all sexy and supple for them, but they don’t seem to feel any obligation to at least put in some time at the local gym or fitness center. You really don’t need to do very much scratching to find the pus-oozing misogyny that lies underneath the veneer of anything that has its origins from the wunnerful wirld of Mens Rights Activists (which is good on account of you usually need to wash your hands immediately afterward). I re-read this article almost every time I link it somewhere, and with every fresh reading, I’m just astounded with the level of {BLECH!} generated by the PUA phenomenon.

  2. May 22, 2014 4:00 pm

    Wow….just wow on that PUA crap 😛

    Also, just as a sidenote….”friendzone” is not a bad thing. I married my best friend and it’s the best thing I could have ever done.

  3. Dizzyd permalink
    May 22, 2014 5:50 pm

    Awww…poor little dudebros – can’t get it up because women are making their eyes ache and offending their widdle fee-fees. The whole article was so laughable it was almost hard to get mad or offended by any of these grade-school dropouts. What 20, Tom and the other nitwits that patronize these sites can’t get to seem through their foot-thick skulls is that no girl – hot or otherwise – would want to date them (at least without being paid up front) is because they are such pathetic POS’s with absolutely no redeeming value. Hint, boys: women don’t want to be treated like objects that only exist to turn you on. I know, I know, the truth hurts but deal with it and grow up. (BTW, the “nice guy” CAN get the girl if he plays it cool and actually acts like a friend and not just a puppy hanging around the dinner table waiting for some scraps to fall. If she’s not into you, you at least have a good friend. If she sees that you’ve always been there for her and care about her as a person and not a pair of boobs and vagina that just happen to have a head attached, she could wind up wanting to take the relationship deeper. May not always happen, but a lot of women like my peep “stitchgnomercy” will tell you the man they married is their best friend. And THAT is what makes for a long, satisfying relationship, rather than basing it off of how “hot” the other person is. Maybe if the dudebros start treating women like equals and friends – and not conquests or real-life inflatable dolls they can get their jollies with – they may find that dating pool getting wider.

    • May 22, 2014 7:52 pm

      One must first transform from a Dudebro to an actual Man to absorb the wisdom of your message.

    • Lora permalink
      May 23, 2014 12:33 pm

      Well said.

  4. May 22, 2014 6:04 pm

    First of all, the movies get it wrong. There IS such a thing as non-romantic, never-will-be-romantic friendship between men and women. And that’s OK.

    Second, I absolutely detest “PUAs”. These slimy, bottom-feeding douchebags can go crawl back under the rock they came from. UGH!

    Last, some advice for any douchebag who thinks temporarily existing in the same general vicinity as a woman gives them the right to anything concerning her, really, and justifies being a dick:

  5. May 22, 2014 7:35 pm

    Reblogged this on Sly Fawkes and commented:
    The whole “Pickup Artist” thing is such a fucking gross joke. I love how they get all upset when a woman has the confidence not to respond to their disgusting, misogynist tactics. Then suddenly, whether she’s conventionally attractive or a “fat pig,” she becomes an “ugly slut.”
    The one with the poor misused puffin assumes that larger bodies were always seen as sick and weak. This is not the case. Plumpness was once seen as a desirable quality and an indicator of health.
    Yep, we fat women are “forcing” the poor little douchebags to want to do us. So not! Personally, I just want them to leave me alone. I don’t want them or their nasty willies anywhere near me.
    There is also the assumption that every female on the planet wants to be seen as “sexy.” I, personally, do not want to be seen as “sexy” by the general public. Were I involved with somebody, I’d like him to see me as desirable, but not as some sort of sex toy. Which is what “sexy” tends to imply when bandied about by dudebros.
    BTW, it’s not just guys who get “friendzoned.” I was constantly “like a sister” to guys that I wanted to date. I was never the pretty, popular girl by any means. I had guys asking me if I’d ask my pretty friend if she’d go out with them. I finally got very snippy with one of them and told him to ask her his own damn self. Word must have gotten around, because none of them ever asked me to be their go-between again.

  6. Duckie permalink
    May 22, 2014 8:36 pm

    I had such a huge crush on John Cryer’s “Duckie!” (no relation!)

  7. lifeonfats permalink
    May 22, 2014 10:14 pm

    It seems that the First Rule of Dudebro is that they can be fat and unattractive but women must look like a Playboy centerfold at all times with zero self-esteem before they would even consider giving them a chance. Hmm, maybe that’s why they don’t want confident women, because I would think a confident woman of any size would ignore them like the morons they are.

    And enough with the “there were no obese women back in the day” crap. Fat women have been around since the dawn of time. If they believe that the world is only getting fatter, that means these charmers will have to resort to groping blowup dolls in their basements since there won’t be any hot, thin women to lust after. Hell, they probably already do that now.

    • Jennifer Hansen permalink
      May 23, 2014 3:41 am

      Eh, I think the first rule of dudebros is that only men are human. Women are these objects that are supposed to be issued to men, and if the desired ration of women is not on the doorstep every 24 hours, then the world is being very unfair. If those women had their priorities straight they would be in their assigned place in the lineup of Women The Dudebro Wants To Bang. Instead of, you know, having lives and stuff. And because women are only on this earth to be banged, any woman a dudebro finds unbangable is being horribly unfair by rudely existing where he can see her.

      The second rule of dudebros is that the world runs on libido. The idea that people might go through whole days not evaluating one another sexually, or having brief thoughts about attraction and then putting them aside because they aren’t relevant–unpossible! The idea that women they want to do might not be doing anybody–unpossible! (They must be doing lots of people because women are for sex.) And so of course this is the type of john who thinks that the women who are being paid, or simply told on pain of pain, to pretend to find them attractive actually find them attractive. And so they think of themselves as international pickup artists when the truth is that the local pimps saw them coming a mile away.

    • venuspluto67 permalink
      November 13, 2014 7:13 am

      Indeed. Anthropologists have no doubt that the full-figured “Venus” totems of the paleolithic era were objects of religious veneration that symbolized prosperity and fertility.

  8. May 23, 2014 10:21 am

    I’m rather confused by the charts. I can’t tell if it’s due to the explanations around them or because I’ve had a long week. 😮

  9. Rubyfruit permalink
    May 23, 2014 10:34 am

    Thanks for that picture of the PUAs Of High Renown. This entry, while informative, was kind of depressing…until that.

    I needed the laugh today.

  10. Natalie permalink
    May 23, 2014 12:17 pm

    Sorry to be vulgar but those guys get one thing right: they are completely and utterly unfuckable. Nothing to do with size, looks or wealth, just their personalities. We may hate them but really it must be quite hard to live your life as such a scumbag 😦

    • venuspluto67 permalink
      April 22, 2016 2:03 pm

      I know, right? It’s not always easy being Yours Truly, but then I think about that whole crew and realize things could be so much worse!

  11. Happy Spider permalink
    May 23, 2014 4:46 pm

    Your quotes from PUAs are too vile to engage me, but I liked your part at the end where you made a connection between your own Nice Guy behavior and the PUA. It always seems to me also that PUA is an evolution of Nice Guy.

    I’m not good at seeing correlations, but did you really mean to say “poorer nations tend to fall in the ‘won’t touch my penis’ category of 20nation’s map”? That surprises me. I thought the PUA’s idea that women who feel inferior are easier targets makes sense. So I would have thought that, all other things being equal, it would be easier to find unhappy women in poorer countries and so easier to hunt women there.

    Is the map of easiness of girls by country specifically a map of easiness of hot girls by country? Because you only quoted what he said about the easiness of picking up hot girls in the USA, nothing about the easiness of picking up fat girls.

    I wonder if it’s true that thin women in fat countries are pickier about their men because they have more choices? Here we talk a lot about self-hatred in fat people, so that makes it easy to think that thin people have a glorious stroll through life filled with sunshine and roses but, I don’t know, it seems like nobody makes it through life without self-hatred. Maybe the PUA is making this fallacy, whose name I forget: Suppose his hypothesis that unconfident women are easier targets is correct. Suppose a certain percentage of women are unconfident. When the PUA goes hunting in a crowd, he will first pick out the thin women and then, given a range of the women to choose from, naturally zero in on the unconfident ones. If thin women are rare, then it will be hard to find women who are both thin and unconfident so his hunting will be unsuccessful so he will think thin women are hard to target. If thin women are common, then he’ll find some unconfident ones and that will be what he remembers, not all the thin ones he probably automatically passed over because of not having an aura of vulnerability.

    In your pictures of PUAs, the PUAs looked like perfectly normal people to me. You are always posting pictures of people in order to get us to jeer at them and I always think, “Nope, this person looks just fine to me.” I find that funny, it makes me laugh.

  12. May 23, 2014 8:41 pm

    Dudebros are basically manchildren that feel that they are entitled to get what they want and feel threatened by women who are confident and strong. I would bet that most of these men feel that women should be falling all over them, ready to have sex or whatever. Basically it’s also called the “alpha male” mindset. They view women as sex objects rather than human beings and that is what women are only good for and yet they are perplexed as to why women don’t want anything to do with them, fat women or otherwise.

    Also, most of these men have high standards in women, they want model perfect women and won’t settle for less, needless to say, these types of women usually exist in the upper middle to upper class brackets and therefore are unobtainable for lower bracket dudebros, at least I think most dudebros usually are lower income at the most.

    I think it’s just a bunch of very insecure men that have high, lofty standards, have issues with socialization and get their ideas about women from popular culture that doesn’t reflect what real life is like.

  13. Isabel permalink
    May 25, 2014 3:57 pm

    This is awesome and important, thank you so much….will follow the blog now.

  14. Oxymoronictonic permalink
    May 27, 2014 1:27 am

    ‘Lazy susan installed in my neck’ and ‘swimming in willing vaginas’ made me laugh out loud.

  15. venuspluto67 permalink
    May 30, 2014 9:20 am

    As many readers undoubtedly know, that misogynist shooter in California who got in the news recently by killing a bunch of people was a member of a PUAhate community described by atchka as a whole other world of misogyny. The guy’s posts there would bellow his insistence that women shouldn’t be allowed to choose with whom they couple. You don’t even have to be particularly feminist to look at such a scuzzy, twisted subculture and just want to hurl profusely.

  16. June 13, 2014 4:37 pm

    You pointed this out a bit in your article, but I wanted to reiterate in my comment: It’s usually NOT the case that women are “stuck up” compared to men. I remember reading this article based on OKCupid data that makes the strong case that, although women judge appearances more harshly than men do women (Men generally consider a larger number of women on OKCupid to be of “medium” attractiveness while women go the opposite direction.), women message attractive men less often than men message women they consider to be “most attractive.” So, to sum it up, even though women on OKCupid (and I extrapolate that this is true on most dating sites but I can’t know for sure) believe fewer men are “most attractive” or even “medium” attractive, they will message the men they consider to be “least attractive” because they’re less confident. Meanwhile, men on OKCupid message “most attractive” women much more frequently than they even message “medium” attractive women. On average men on OKCupid think, regardless of their own attractiveness, that they have a chance with the most attractive women on the site much more often than the most attractive women message even moderately attractive men. Here’s a link to that article for anyone who is interested:

    • September 26, 2014 8:08 am

      @KC: I know Dan Savage isn’t a popular person with those of us coping with societal prejudice against fat people (with good reason), but sometimes he does have a way of summing up things. He really hit the nail on the head in referring to testosterone as “the crystal meth of hormones”. That of course must not be a justification for asshole-male behavior, but I believe the nature of the libido of younger men (which an acquaintance once described as “having a second will dragging you around by your crotch-area”) has a lot do with why so many men have a distorted perspective about their prospects for sex and dating. The sad truth is that it often takes a lot of disappointment and a lot of self-educating about what’s truly what to overcome this perspective distortion, and this “dudebro evopsych” is undoubtedly a mechanism for avoiding any such rude awakening.

  17. December 6, 2014 12:00 am

    I know I’m a bit late to the party, but I just have to thank you for this post – it made me laugh about a subject that often just causes me to vacillate between a hollow ache of sadness and purple-faced rage at the state of misogyny, ignorance, and fat hatred in our culture. It is a tremendous relief to find people who are articulate, intelligent, funny, and vocal about these issues amidst a sea of trolling fools.

  18. venuspluto67 permalink
    September 22, 2016 11:59 am

    Trigger warning included in body of article. Sad reading, but very relevant:

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