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June 26, 2014

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Trigger warning: Discussion of weight loss products.

Something remarkable happened in Washington DC last week while I was on vacation:

This morning the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee held a hearing on protecting consumers from false or misleading weight loss advertising. Last year Americans spent about $2.4 billion on weight loss products, and according to the Federal Trade Commission, it is the most common source of consumer fraud, with 7.6 million cases in 2011, the most recent year for which numbers were available.

There were quite a few witnesses called to the hearing, but the testimony that really made news was by Dr. Mehmet Oz, the notorious cardiothoracic surgeon turned talk show host. If you haven’t watched it yet, do yourself a favor and enjoy the epic humiliation of a cheap confidence man:


Raking Dr. Oz over the coals, Senator Claire McCaskill, Chairwoman of the Consumer Protection panel, who I proudly voted for back in 2006 when I still lived in St. Louis. She’s a tough, moderate Senator, but I hadn’t expected her to be quite so aggressive on a non-political subject that I’m personally passionate about. I should have figured that the woman who bested Todd “Legitimate Rape” Akin would have no trouble throttling a shameless charlatan like Oz.

As a result of the long-overdue tongue-lashing, Dr. Oz was completely eviscerated by the inimitable John Oliver on Last Week Tonight (a show that, had I the money, I would throw it away on an HBO subscription just to watch), which I also highly recommend:


This week, Dr. Oz tried to move forward, posting his usual banal twaddle on Twitter, like this:

The hashtag was too good to resist, and Twitter responded in the way only Twitter can:

But Dr. Oz’s testimony itself is worth delving into deeper.

Right out of the gate, McCaskill cited three quotes from Dr. Oz:

  • “You may think magic is make-believe, but this little bean has scientists saying they’ve found the magic weight-loss cure for every body type.  It’s Green Coffee Extract.”
  • “I’ve got the number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat!  It’s Raspberry Ketones.”
  • “Garcinia Cambogia: it may be the simple solution you’ve been looking for the bust your body fat for good.”

McCaskill then says, “I don’t get why you need to say this stuff, because you know it’s not true! So why, when you have this amazing megaphone, and this amazing ability to communicate, why would you cheapen your show by saying things like that?”

Oz v McCaskill

They’re the kinds of claims we see in ads all the time, yet they rarely get called out in such spectacular fashion. Oz is caught flat-footed by McCaskill’s aggressive questioning and attempts to justify his comments by claiming that in the case of green coffee beans that there was a clinical trial backing him up, saying “There was one large one, one very good quality one, that was done the year we talked about this in 2012.”

McCaskill smacks that shit down, saying, “At the point in time you initially talked about this being a ‘miracle,’ the only study that was out there was the one with 16 people in India that was written up by somebody who was being paid by the company who was producing it.” BOOM!

Oz tries to come back to this by saying that our health opinions have changed over the years. “Should you be on a low-fat diet, a low-carb diet? I spent a good part of my career recommending that folks have a low-fat diet. We’ve come full circle in that argument now and no longer recommend that. Many of us who practice medicine, because we realized it wasn’t working for our patients… In the practice of medicine we evolve by looking at new ideas challenging orthodoxy and evolving them.”

The only problem with this defense is that Dr. Oz acts as though low-carb diets are only the latest evolution of dietary advice, which is bullshit. In fact, the very first diet ever recorded was a low-carb diet, as promoted by a man named William Banting. The low-carb trend became so popular due to his writings that people referred to losing weight through dietary weight loss prescriptions as “banting.” So the fight between low-carb and low-fat isn’t the latest evolution of the orthodoxy: it IS the orthodoxy.

And the reason people keep turning to miracles and magic is that the orthodoxy has failed people for over 150 years, so they seek out “aids” that will give them that extra boost of fat-busting power. With that kind of environment, it’s not surprising that frauds like Oz fill that void with bold promises of the next big thing.

Oz then goes on to cite his own informal “study” of giving supplements and placebos to his audience, and McCaskill backhands that bullshit by pointing out that it does not pass scientific muster. Floundering for a response, Dr. Oz goes completely off the deep end.

“I don’t think this ought to be a referendum on the use of alternative medical therapies,” Oz whines. “Because if that’s the case then listen, I have been criticized for having folks coming on my show and talking about the power of prayer.  Now again, as a practitioner, I can’t prove that prayer helps people survive an illness —”

“It’s hard to buy prayer,” McCaskill interjects, scoring laughs from the peanut gallery (although, I have to point out that Martin Luther would disagree).

Oz then goes on to explain that even though the scientific proof isn’t there, he puts his money where his mouth is, saying, “Nevertheless I give my audience the advice I give my family all the time.  And I’ve given my family these products, specifically the ones you mentioned, and I’m comfortable with that part.” Yeah, Dr. Oz, and I know people who believe in the power of prayer so vigorously that they’ll let not one, but two of their children die from lack of medical treatment.

Oz explains that the biggest problem is that he used “flowery language” that “provided fodder for unscrupulous advertisers” because nobody could see that coming. He then says that the magic bean footage is two years old and that he’s learned his lesson since then.

We did a show, with yacon syrup, which you did not bring up. It’s a South American root that had a big study published on it, I think a very high quality study, where they showed that not only did it help people lose weight, but it more importantly helped their health. It was men and women who were diabetic, done by an academic center down there — it was not funded by industry — and we talked about it.  And I used as careful language as I could, and still there were internet scam ads picking one or two supportive words. [emphasis mine]

Here’s the hilarious part: the study Oz references is funded in part by the International Potato Center (CIP) in Peru, a “root and tuber research-for-development institution” whose mission is to “achieve food security, well-being, and gender equity for poor people in root and tuber farming and food systems in the developing world.” That is indeed a noble mission, but it certainly raises concerns that an organization promoting tuber farming might overstate the benefits of a tuber like yacon that is native to Peru. Per the CIP:

[Ivan Manrique, Curator for the CIP] believes that the next big [Andean Root and Tuber Crop] to make an impact on the global market will be Yacon… Furthermore, in Bolivia, Yacon has been consumed by diabetics for centuries… Peruvian Yacon products (including flour and medicinal products) account for exports worth an estimated USD 1.2 million a year, but Ivan Manrique would like to see this figure climb substantially over the coming years.

The study itself is pretty hilarious because there were three cohorts followed, but the cohort with the greatest amount of yacon syrup reported diarrhea, severe abdominal distention, flatulence and nausea. In fact, the study says, “The subjects considered the flatulence severe and unacceptable and no adaptation in symptoms occurred over time. Therefore, this group was excluded from the present study.” Everybody line up for Dr. Oz’s Magical Yacon Pills! Fart your fat away permanently!

This study points out that “this is the first study that demonstrates the beneficial effects of yacon syrup on human health at an intake level that caused no undesirable side effects” in reference to the smaller dose. But here’s the thing: yacon syrup may be a wonderful solution for diabetics, but Dr. Oz has taken one study funded by a group that promotes yacon for development and has begun pushing it as the next big weight loss supplement. This is the exact same thing that happened with green coffee extract: he promoted it on the basis of a single study that was funded by a group that will benefit directly from his shilling.

Even without all this information, McCaskill is flabbergasted that Oz continues to defend his promotion of supplements. “I’m surprised that you are defending…I mean I’ve tried to really do a lot of research in preparation for this trial, and the scientific community is almost monolithic against you in terms of the efficacy of the three products that you’ve called miracles.” She again asks him why he would promote these things as a “miracle in a bottle.”

“My job, I feel, on the show is to be a cheerleader for the audience,” Oz says. “And when they don’t think they have hope and when they don’t think they can make it happen, I’m willing to look and I do look everywhere, including alternative healing traditions, for any evidence that might be supportive to them.”

See, the problem is that traditional diet and exercise prescriptions don’t yield the kind of impressive results we’re told to expect. If you adopt a healthy lifestyle and achieve a 5-10% loss of your starting weight, you’re likely to be disappointed. Oz knows this and he wants to “cheerlead” people into believing there are ways to get around that. He’s selling hope in the form of herbal placebos. But as he points out, “I don’t sell it and these are not for long-term use.”

Okay, so you can’t take it in long-term, but he then makes the following claim:

By the way, with green coffee bean extract as an example, it’s one pound per week over the duration of the different trials that have been done… If you could lose a pound a week more than you would have lost, doing the things you should be doing already — you can’t sprinkle it on kielbasa and expect it to work — but if that trial data is what’s mimicked in your life and you get a few pounds off, it jumpstarts you and it gives you confidence to keep going.  And then you start to follow the things we talk about every single day… I think it makes sense.

Yes, if you make all kinds of leaps of faith, it makes sense. What doesn’t make sense, though, is taking all these leaps of faith from a single study from 2012, which only tracked subjects for 12 weeks, and then concluding that it will continue to have long-term weight loss benefits once you stop taking the supplement.

achieve food security, well-being, and gender equity for poor people in root and tuber farming and food systems in the developing world – See more at:
achieve food security, well-being, and gender equity for poor people in root and tuber farming and food systems in the developing world – See more at:”

It’s been like Christmas for me, watching Dr. Oz squirm after years of reckless, unsubstantiated claims of miracles and magic. It’s not often that bullshit claims about weight loss get called out in such a public fashion. And Oliver nailed it when he said, “Dr. Oz is just a symptom of the problem. The disease is that dietary supplements in the U.S. are shockingly unregulated.” This is certainly a major problem, as supplements are almost entirely unregulated in this country. But the magical thinking that supports the supplement industry is so deeply rooted that even critics of Dr. Oz engage in the exact same practice.

For instance, Melanie Haiken of Forbes lists 10 supplements that Dr. Oz promotes,and points out the fraudulent claims. But then, at the very end of the article, Haiken links to an article she wrote in 2012 titled “7 New Weight Loss Supplements With Top Scientific Ratings.” Ironically, one of the products (mango seed) is on both lists.

Until we get past the widespread promotion of weight loss at any cost, belief in the magical power of supplements will continue.

Thanks to this weight loss blog for the transcript.

17 Comments leave one →
  1. vesta44 permalink
    June 26, 2014 1:20 pm

    Until we get past the widespread promotion of weight loss at any cost, belief in the magical power of supplements will continue.
    Until we get past the thought that there is one “ideal” size for every person, and that size is thin, we will continue to see a plethora of weight loss supplements and iteration after iteration of the same old diets that were around 150 years ago (and haven’t worked for the majority of people, not long-term, anyway).
    I’m glad Dr Oz was pilloried in such a public fashion, but as long as he’s making money off promoting this shit, he’s not going to stop. While the companies may not pay him directly, his advocacy of this false hope of easy weight loss on his show brings in gullible viewers who buy these supplements, which brings in advertisers, which brings him money. So he profits off giving people false hope, he knows it’s false hope, and he doesn’t care (if he cared, he’d STFU and go away already).

  2. Dizzyd permalink
    June 26, 2014 6:58 pm

    I was SO happy when I heard about this! Happy days!!! Now, if only they would go after the flim-flam artists that are Weight Watchers, Nutri-System, Jenny Craig, etc. I know it’s probably not good or Christian to gloat, but IN YOUR FACE, DR. OZ!!! YOU JUST GOT SCHOOLED, SON!!! PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT! BURN! WOOT!!!

    • George permalink
      June 27, 2014 9:44 am

      I actually thoroughly enjoyed weight watchers. Why do you think they are a flim flam company? Nutri-system I completely agree with but WW gives you a way of managing portions and understanding nutrients. You don’t even have to buy their meals to eat, you can make stuff yourself. Understanding macro nutrients and the different types of fats and carbs is essential in healthy eating.

      • June 27, 2014 10:38 am

        I can’t speak for Dizzyd, but my problem with Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig is that they give their customer unrealistic expectations. Their own research shows that very few people on their program lose more than 10% of their weight and keep it off for more than a year, yet the vast majority of their ads tout weight loss of 25% or more. If you want to understand nutrition and healthy eating, work with a nutritionist or a dietitian, not a company selling false hope with celebrity endorsers paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to maintain their weight loss.


        • George permalink
          June 27, 2014 11:18 am

          I guess I may be coming from a different state of mind but I really hate the “keep it off for more than a year” part of “programs failing”. Were they on the program when they failed? Did they stick to what was given? WW gave me a sense of portion control for me as to what I needed vs what I wanted.

          If someone stops the program and goes back to what they were originally doing…they are going to go back to the weight they were. Whose fault is that truly though? I’m not pointing fingers but for my personal experiences, when I lost weight and then gained it back, it was because I ignored my nutritional needs and failed at controlling myself. It was my fault. I couldn’t blame WW for that bounce back.

          I agree that having tons of celebrities endorsing a company when they really didn’t use it is wrong. I completely agree to that. But most of the time I see the ads say that people can lose up to 1-2 pounds a week.

          One of the things I hate is that people want things to happen quickly and fast. That isn’t how the body works and things take time. 1-2 pounds a week is fast in my eyes. That’s 52 pounds in a year. In 2 years that’s over 100 pounds. That’s a lot. I think people fail more so due to the mental issues of nutrition and being able to understand why we eat certain foods and what the body really needs vs what we want. That type of education is harder to find through waves of fad diets and pills but that is because those prey on the weak minded who are easily swayed…and guess what? It works

      • June 27, 2014 1:09 pm

        (Starting over to avoid noodling).

        Again, your perception on weight loss is wrong and it’s skewed by the kinds of unfounded disclaimers you mentioned (1-2 pounds per week), which purport that that’s the rate people should expect (3,500 calories per pound). The unavoidable fact is that the vast majority of people who adopt lifestyle changes and adhere to them don’t lose at that rate. Not even close. I will have a shitload of studies to back this up in my future post, but weight loss researchers define “clinically significant weight loss” as 5-10% of starting weight. That is what most people achieve on a weight loss program, which disappoints them because they expect to lose (on average) 25% or more. The only thing that does have an average weight loss of 25% is WLS. Most weight loss attempts lose a lot of weight up front, then taper off over time, and many people regain that weight. The reason for that is a mix of recidivism and the hormonal response to caloric restriction. The idea that most people in these studies who are being educated for free on the kinds of long-term lifestyle changes you’re talking about are just abject failures, are weak-minded or easily-swayed is wrong. Researchers accept that long-term, large-scale weight loss is not sustainable for most people. It’s lay people who aren’t aware of the across-the-board trends who make groundless assumptions about the “willpower” of dieters and ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. WW is simply the slickest, sleekest incarnation of the broken calories in/calories out hypothesis, and they profit greatly off customers paying for their advice, regaining the weight, then paying for their advice again. Sorry, but it’s all a scam to me.


        • George permalink
          June 27, 2014 1:48 pm

          “Again, your perception on weight loss is wrong and it’s skewed by the kinds of unfounded disclaimers you mentioned (1-2 pounds per week), which purport that that’s the rate people should expect (3,500 calories per pound). ”

          I find it very telling of you to say my view is wrong based on my experiences. Isn’t that the same way of speaking that this website was against? I do not like you using a false cause fallacy on me either. I never mentioned the amount of calories or even the world calorie in my post. Please do not misunderstand nor try to assume I am saying something that I have not.

          I mentioned that 1-2 pounds a week is a lot…that is fast and that is quick for weight loss. I never said it was healthy but rather stating the difference in which you exclaimed the 25% weight loss statement.

          People lose weight at different sizes and at different rates based on a variety of different issues. PCOS, Muscle mass, Metabolism, levels of physical activity.

          “The only thing that does have an average weight loss of 25% is WLS. Most weight loss attempts lose a lot of weight up front, then taper off over time, and many people regain that weight. The reason for that is a mix of recidivism and the hormonal response to caloric restriction.”

          This statement further addresses my point of teaching people proper nutrition and having the mental will power to adhere to something.

          Recidivism is the act of repeating an undesirable behavior. That is a mental act. You are actively doing something that is undesirable. Whether that be stretching your stomach after having gastric bypass, Removing the liquid in your lapband or drinking liquids with foods to push the band through or just going back to improper nutrition.

          All of these are Recidivisms. Whose responsibility is that? The only person that can do something about yourself…is YOU. You should empower yourself and be confident in yourself. If you get upset that you relapsed from your diet or lifestyle change or whatever you were doing, take a step back and evaluate why it happened and you adapt to the changes by yourself. You take responsibility and empower the ability to do what you set out to do.

          I am not trying to down talk or scold anyone when I say weak-minded or easily swayed. It is a very big mental obstacle to want to eat healthy and be healthy. There are many hard obstacles and life long lessons that someone needs to learn. This can seem like a very large hurdle for someone and hard to overcome. If you fail, you did not set goals that your mind could maintain and weren’t strong enough for THAT specific goal. Re-evaluate, readdress, refocus and aim for something obtainable. When you do reach that goal, use that positive mental re enforcement to push yourself to your next goal. It causes a snowball effect of building on your goals to achieve that final one. There is nothing wrong with that. If you fail, use it as a learning experience. To say I am wrong is subjective to your view and not wrong for me as it was what I did to succeed.

          You bring up caloric restrictions again and while I do agree that less calories taken in does assist in weight loss, one of the things I do not agree with, are the insane calorie deficits that create an unwanted inbalance in a person. The Low Fat or Low Carb diets are garbage. I do not agree with them. We need certain fats (Omega 3,6,9 , monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats), and carbs (Dietary Fiber, Insoluble fiber) and knowing the difference in sugars (fructose, glucose, sucrose, lactose) and how they respond and act within our body.

          The body does need food to function and to be in balance. Eating more food can produce a healthier body than depriving it of food…but it is WHAT food we eat that will allow that.

          WW was one of the groups that assisted me in learning that. Yes there are some iffy things with the program but following the basics, without even having to buy all the membership items/fees (most of this is now easily accessible with the power of the internet) can be utilized.

          I did not restrict myself to huge calorie deficit and ate healthy. I was eating tons of great meals but edited what I was putting in my system. This resulted in much better bloodwork, more energy and a very positive mental state. I did this for the past 8 years. I haven’t done hardcore “Dieting” since i was a teenager. Though with this proper nutrition my body did naturally lose weight. I went from 400+ pounds down to 210 without “dieting”. I learned what proper nutrition was based on macro nutrients.

        • LittleBigGirl permalink
          June 27, 2014 3:57 pm

          You know Shannon, reading both your and George’s posts I feel like you are both right…but that not separating health from weight is preventing you guys from agreeing.
          The way George describes it he didn’t really even use WW the way they expect people to and actually rejected (or ignored) a lot of the aspects of it that you object to.
          And you are right to question their motive (making money, duh) and what their motive does to their program. There message is off and they are too self-serving to trust as having people’s best interest when it comes to health. There are better, safer resources for people who want to make a ‘lifestyle change’ or improve their nutrition.
          The diet companies have convinced us that the science of health is beyond the layman’s grasp and must be filtered through them (for a fee of course). Can you imagine if more people took their health and nutrition into their own hands, instead of paying these so called “experts” to tell them what to do or “fix” them? And yet all the diet commercials make it seem as if calling to join there program is a decisive, empowering act – that you have to start with them in order to be successful.
          I do not need to hire them to help me change my life, and they just want me to pay to make *their* changes. Surprise surprise – I can actually figure out for myself what is good for me.
          I’ll believe the good intentions of the first diet program that is a non-profit.
          And I’ll believe the legitimacy of their first nutrition program that does not equate weight-loss with health.

          • June 27, 2014 10:11 pm

            Yup, they market themselves as Gatekeepers of Truth, when their own research that they put on their own cite is pretty depressing. If we were talking about any other medical treatment, we’d consider the outcome a failure, population-wise.


      • LittleBigGirl permalink
        June 27, 2014 3:39 pm

        Why did you need WW to understand nutrition? There are tons of resources online and at the library. WW doesn’t have any super secret amazing insight into nutrition that can’t be found elsewhere – and for cheaper.

        • Jennifer Hansen permalink
          June 27, 2014 3:57 pm

          I actually learned a lot about nutrition and self-care from WW. Instead of “People should drink . . . ” and “The food groups include . . . ” my WW group talked about “Staying hydrated helps you feel comfortable, and here’s how to do it when you’re very busy,” and “If you need more of the nutrients in dark green vegetables, here’s a recipe I tried and liked.” I also learned how to distinguish my own levels of hunger and satiety, literally for the first time in my life.

          Unfortunately, the promises of weight loss are not supported by scientific study. It was relatively easy to miss this when my group leader was leading rounds of applause for people who managed to get in some exercise every day for a week, whether or not they lost weight. When the group leader moved away and a new person came in who was all about the scale, the scales fell off my eyes pretty quickly.

          I still stay hydrated and eat my greens. I don’t need to pay WW for that.

      • June 27, 2014 10:04 pm

        Your body doesn’t care whether you’re counting calories or counting points. The problem is excessive restriction of calories. WW’s system is essentially converting calories to points. The problem is that according both contemporary research and widely respected researchers, most people do not lose half their body weight simply by adopting a healthier lifestyle, let alone without severe caloric restriction. There isn’t one plan, one caloric level, one “healthy lifestyle” program that has shown a person with your results to be anything but an outlier. Yes, people lose weight at different rates, but most people do not experience what you did. You are writing that off as a matter of willpower, while I’m saying that the whole concept of willpower is a philosophical concept unless you understand the biological processes that control willpower. And to understand what I mean by that, I always point people to this lecture. If you want to discuss what Dr. Friedman has to say on the subject, fine, but I couldn’t care less about your particular opinion on this subject. I’ve read a million iterations of it and there’s nothing new you’re going to add to my understanding of your argument. You misunderstand the “way of speaking” this website was designed “against.” This website does not say that all opinions are equally valid, so if you want to disagree with people on here, you can expect to be disagreed with. Your perception on this subject is wrong, in my opinion. Mine. And clearly you think my perception is wrong or you wouldn’t continue to argue this with me.


  3. lifeonfats permalink
    June 26, 2014 7:18 pm

    It was about time!!! This man hawked so many weight loss fads and proclaimed that each one was the miracle that melted off the pounds. I think he also gave his approval to that diet where you inject hormones and eat 500 calories a day. Can we please stop giving airtime to Oprah’s friends now? If she couldn’t lose weight following his advice, then nobody could!

  4. June 28, 2014 2:47 pm

    I didn’t think McCaskill came across as very aggressive in that footage. If anything, she was fairly restrained. Just as well. All the better for people to concentrate on the Doc’s backpedaling without being tempted to feel sorry for him.

  5. Dizzyd permalink
    June 30, 2014 4:42 pm

    Actually I DID try Weight Watchers at work for a time, and that was when they had the whole “points’ thing – that you could only eat a certain amount of points each day. I got very suspicious when I had a quota of about 25 – 27 points (I forget exactly how much) so I had a bowl of cereal that morning with skim milk (1 point) – good start. Then I had what I thought would be a low-point, nutritious lunch – a slice of veggie pizza, salad with lettuce, corn, carrots, tomatoes, kidney beans, broccoli, and a smattering of sunflower seeds to make things interesting – and all of it was covered with low-fat honey mustard. I also had a diet Coke. I thought that’s a good meal right there with probably about 10 points used, allowing a good amount for dinner. WRONG! That so-called “healthy” lunch used up almost all of my points! I barely had anything for dinner! I thought “What the heck am I supposed to have? A salad with only lettuce and light Italian?” I decided then forget this, I’m eating what I want. I’m not going to depend on some weight-loss points system to dictate what I can or can’t eat. So I walked away from dieting and never looked back. Sooner after that, I found out about the FA movement. I’ll admit, I could use a little bit of help to get back on track, but not by a bunch of cheerleaders for the status quo. And concern trolls like George (and I know he is, cuz of the clichés he’s spouting about “calories in/calories out” and “willpower-I-did-it-so-can-you”) can stick it!

    • George permalink
      July 1, 2014 8:22 am

      That’s pretty rude Dizzyd. If you don’t believe me and think i’m a troll. Please feel free to Message me at my email I can show you my before, my after and my pre/post op skin reduction surgery.

      As I have said in other posts. I am not for a strict calories in / calories out way of thinking. If you read any of my posts, you would see that. Rather I am for learning about the difference in nutrition that comes with calories. Eating 500 calories worth of twinkies vs 500 calories worth of vegetables IS different.

      As for WW, this is to answer a few people on this thread…it taught me Structure. A way of preparing my meals and setting myself up for success throughout the day. Yes pizza is going to be high in points. It is dough, heavy carbs, starches and heavy Saturated fat. That is why the points are so high. That was one of the things I started looking into. Why are some things higher in points than others.

      Fat: 1 gram = 9 calories
      Protein: 1 gram = 4 calories
      Carbohydrates: 1 gram = 4 calories

      Was the beginning of my understanding. Then learning the difference in sugars, carbs, fats. All of these things taken into consideration helped me understand what I was putting into my body. I am someone that is pushing for proper nutrition that takes into account WHERE the calories come from. Just because I don’t agree with a hivemind doesn’t mean I am trolling. I am here for discussion but ad hominem attacks on me will end with nothing gained.

      • Dizzyd permalink
        January 2, 2015 11:46 am

        George – yes, you are! I will only respond with this: you parrot the same talking points that diet devotees everywhere spout. You’re so far gone you won’t listen to anything anyone else has to say. And if the troll shoes fit…

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